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| 2009 Player Fund/Nationals Format | |
Wednesday, 22 October 2008
The voucher program is discussed in another post and, I believe, has gotten lost in all the other information. It's a very important part of this change and should be highlighted. Vouchers are an added incentive for teams to participate in the Nationals.
"Any other money over and above the $20k payback at the Masters will be used to support teams that get into the money on the Championship board - in the form of National vouchers. For example, vouchers will be worth the cost of team entry fees ($700+) and hotel rooms ($1400+) = $2100. This is money that will be reimbursed after teams make their arrangements to go to the Nationals. This will give more teams an opportunity to go to the Nationals and encourage teams to use their winnings to participate in the National event. If a team chooses not to use the voucher, it will default to the next team in line that does."
Sunday, 19 October 2008
The comment below was made in another area of the blog. It is very important to address again and discuss. This is regarding which days to hold the Masters Tournament. It seems that whatever is decided there will be a certain number of players who will be inconvenienced. The comment below was posted from Ed after we suggested that we would hold the Masters on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
"I would like to say that doing Thursday and Friday 50% each day, and not being able to tell who is on each day, could pose similar issues to two weekends and not knowing which one, or could be much worse considering the majority of player normally work during the week. What about the Thursday night leagues? What about the teams who play earlier that week, will all leagues be off that week?"
Response: This is an excellent question – we have a solution. Bringing this to our attention has made us re-think our position on the best way to handle this to make it as easy as possible for players to get time off. First of all, because of past history of players having a difficult time getting two weekends off from work, we are trying to create a program that we can complete in one weekend. Ed makes a great point about playing on Thursday and having to re-arrange league play. That is simply a bad idea. Therefore, we are proposing to run the tournament on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday. By doing it this way, half the teams would play on Friday, the other half would play on Saturday. All the teams would play on Sunday and the final 8 from the champion board and final 4 or final 2 from the second chance board would play on Monday. The increased benefit of this change is only half the teams would have to get Friday off and wouldn’t play on Saturday, the other half wouldn’t play on Friday and would have to get Saturday off. This is much easier than everyone having to get two complete weekends off. Furthermore, only 10-12 teams would have to take off on Monday.
From all of our experience, we believe that holding this on one weekend causes the least amount of strain on players work schedules and that is our objective because no matter what we do, it won’t be perfect.
I polled several players about this and they all thought it was the best solution.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
It's difficult to implement a change in any organization (good luck Obama:-)! We sent out a proposal a few weeks ago outlining a change to the method in which we send teams to our National event. We received several responses - many were in the same category, so we just took the best from each category and posted the question along with the response. Feel free to comment on any of the posts.
Thank you.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
Some players have voiced a concern about the handicap team limits and high-rated State players coming into the league because of the money payback. How do you guard against this happening?
Currently, handicap 9’s and above come into TAP as H/C 7’s. We do not get many 10’s, 10+1’s, 10+2’s. We have all of the State rating sheets and will diligently monitor every new player coming into the league. Before any new player is added to a team roster, those lists will be checked to ensure someone isn’t coming in under the radar. The penalties for this form of cheating are severe as they have always been. Any player discovered to have come in at a rating that is under what they should have started at will forfeit all previous win points for their team, the points will be given back to the teams they beat, and be immediately raised to the correct handicap. In addition, to protect the league from stacked teams of super players, all 10’s and above will receive a H/C of an “8.” The 8 will be counted towards the team total 25 rule; however, that player will play the same race-grid as a “7.” This is a national rule that will be implemented soon to protect all teams and players.
As an example, if a team tried to have two 8’s on their team, which equals 16, that would leave them 9 points and 3 players, so they would have to have three 3’s or a 4, a 3, or a 2 – and, if anyone went up, they would be done. The other thing to remember is that these high-rated players are not league players, for the most part, and will have to play for an entire year under our H/C rules.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
“Why not raise the dues to $8 and use the extra dollar to send more teams – “I want a free ride and don’t mind paying the extra dollar”?
That would be a great idea; however, during this time of economic stress, we believe that would be a difficult “sell” to the players. We have had other players the dues are too high now, and we should reduce them. Remember, two years ago, we raised the dues by one dollar and we had numerous complaints about that. And, when we did so, we still only kept .40 out of that dollar and gave .60 back to the player payback – and there was still complaining. This player doesn’t want to pay any extra money and wants a free ride, but is willing to pay extra money all year long in hopes to getting one of the National spots.
Remember that we have implemented 4 other programs to generate additional national funding; but, with the costs of hotel and airfare going through the roof and no expectation of it decreasing in the future, it’s unlikely that we will EVER be able to send more than 4 teams to the Nationals if we continue to follow the same path. The new program will allow us to offer 12 National spots, even though the teams may have to pay part of their expenses.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
“Why don’t we lower the dues to $6 and increase the end-of-session payback?”
If we lower the dues by $1 per player that would, in essence, eliminate the entire National Fund with the exception of the four new programs we developed to help increase it. If that were the case, then we would have no reason to hold a “Titleholders” or the “Masters” and we would have absolutely no National participation.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
“I don’t think we should use the player’s money to rent pool tables and a Casino. I think we should have the tournament in the local bars.”
We have evaluated this option and have come up with a new plan that I think will be to the benefit to most players. In the past, it has always been difficult for many players to get two weekends off in a row due to work schedules. With the format we will be using for the Masters, we can hold the entire tournament over the course of one 4-day weekend at local bars not a casino. It will work like this; 50% of the teams will play 3 rounds on either Thursday and the other 50% on Friday. This means that you will only have to get one of those two days off in addition to the weekend. Because we are holding this event on one weekend, we will be able to give you plenty of advance notice to request that time off. All teams will play two rounds on Saturday, but we will stagger them throughout the day. Saturday will be single elimination, so once the first round is completed, 50% of the teams will be knocked out freeing up tables for the remainder of the day. Sunday will be the final 8 of the champion board and final 4 of the second chance. The money saved and any other money over and above the $20k payback will be used to support teams that get into the money on the Championship board in the form of National vouchers. For example, vouchers will be worth the cost of team entry fees ($700+) and hotel rooms ($1400+) = $2100 that are reimbursable for cash as long as the team goes to the Nationals. This will give more teams an opportunity to go to the Nationals and encourage teams to use their winnings to participate in the National event. If a team chooses not to use the voucher, it will default to the next team in line that does.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
“I think that since we are a part of a National league, at least one team should be sent to the National tournament – it should be the 1st place team in addition to the money they win.”
With the voucher program explained previously, this is part of our plan. Keep in mind the letter we sent to the players in the packets is our initial proposal and nothing about that is set in stone. Since that letter was sent, we have already made several modifications to the program and will continue to look for better ways to improve it. Our goal is still to be a Nationally-driven league. We want our players to go to the Nationals and believe this program for the future will allow us to actually send more teams than the current design.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
“The only reason why I play in this league is to travel outside the city.” “If I wanted to play for that prize money, I would go join the APA league.”
This program has not eliminated traveling to other cities for the Nationals. It actually increases your chances for the opportunity to go. Secondly, the APA doesn’t pay out anywhere close to this kind of money. They send approximately 4 teams to Vegas for the Nationals and give each team under $1,000. That’s it! If they are collecting the same $7 dues as we charge, and we are paying back $24,000, where’s the other $20,000 that they still have?
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
“Lesser payout than now - less teams would go to Nationals – too many reasons to list.”
I don’t understand what this even means, and I believe this player should contact me directly so we can clear up some misunderstandings about the program that this player has. The paybacks at the end of the session have actually gone up due to the addition of the 15th week. More teams will have an opportunity to go to the Nationals and not less. If we continue the current program, only 3 or 4 teams out of the entire league will make it to the National event as opposed to 12 teams having the opportunity under the new program. I think you are missing something about the program. Perhaps the answers above will help clear this up.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
“Seems to be a bad idea that could result in the loss of members/teams – appears to favor the more talented players and lessens chances of cashing for weaker players.”
If we continue the current program, the 3 or 4 best teams in the league will be the ones that cash. In this case, unless you are a “super” team, in all reality, you don’t stand much of a chance. With the new program at least 12 teams will automatically earn a National spot and win cash.
Pool players do not start out as strong players. They all start out on the weaker side, but through dedication, practice, competition, coaching, camaraderie, etc., learn to improve and become those stronger players. It’s a process. Weaker players who only go out once a week to shoot pool and hang out with their friends, their goals are different. Any team can be a competitive team and win the Masters if they devote themselves to training for it. It’s hard work. The teams that win have a plan and stick to it all year long.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
“I totally disagree – I think you should take the money given for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place at the end of the session and add it to the National fund to send more teams.” “Let’s face it, when you only win $450 to $500 in a division - this is not much to split 7 or 8 ways.”
Eliminating the prize money at the end of the session wouldn’t be fair to those teams who are unable to play in the Titleholders for whatever reasons – and there are a few. It wouldn’t be fair to take away their opportunity regardless of how few teams make up this group. They earned the money and deserve it. If we were to take it away, how many teams would we lose by putting all the money in the Nationals?
Our suggestion would be for all of those teams that want to go to the Nationals to bank their session winnings and add it to their Masters winnings to cover any additional costs of getting to the Nationals. As an example, let’s say your team took 8th place in the Masters, which would, under the current program, give you nothing. With the new program, you would win $1,000. Let’s say you also won a National voucher worth $2,100 – your team now has $3,100. Let’s say you won that $500 in your division all three sessions – you now have an additional $1,500 added to the $3,100 which gives you a total of $4,600 to send your team to the Nationals. And, remember, you came in 8th place! This is how the new program benefits and gives opportunity to more teams.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
"Instead of giving one choice to the players - you should maybe have A, B & C choices that are all different and have the players decide. It is the players who are the customers."
You are correct that the players are the customers - we've always said that. It is our job to take care of our customers with their best interests in mind at all times. This program is very complicated and difficult to explain in its entirety to every single player. We did pole 30+ players independently prior to sending out the letter - and, from those players, we receive a 100% positive response. We thought that was pretty good. There are many things that affected this decision that would require a 2-hour discussion face-to-face discussion to make it fully clear. We are attempting to clear up the confusion with these responses. We have attempted to offer options to players in the past, and, frankly, it just doesn't work because you will never get consensus on one proposal. If we had three options, we would get an equal number of responses on each and then what would we do? To the person who wrote this concern: What would we do?
We sent out this letter to every team and included five copies in each packet in an attempt to solicit every player's opinion. Out of 850 players, we only received 300 responses back. Do you see the problem here? The problem is that people, in general, don't put any validity towards anything until it directly affects them in their personal life. I can tell you this.next year, if we continue the old program and we announce we are only able to send 4 teams to the Nationals, players will come up to me and ask why I didn't do anything about this and "how come we are only sending 4 teams - we sent 6 last year." Because a year from now, everyone will forget that even though I promised 6, airfare went up $4500 in one week and we should have only sent 5 teams. We kept our promise and sent 6. No one will remember that. The result of this will be teams quitting because it's not worth it for them to play all year long in the hopes of getting one of only 4 spots for the Nationals. And, in the following year, it will probably drop to 3 with the cost of airfare going through the roof.
Wednesday, 08 October 2008
This program is intended to protect your money and give you as much opportunity as possible to achieve the National dream - which is why many of you play. For those of you who are new to the league, or haven't had a chance to talk to me personally, it's important that you understand that all of our decisions are always made with the players interest first. This isn't about me making money - I am not making a dime from all of this - I'm trying to protect your dime in the future. I have 14 years of experience running pool leagues, have been the National tournament director for TAP for 7 years and sit on the board of directors for TAP Nationally. Our decisions are not based solely on what's happening here in Arizona, but global considerations are also part of it. There are things happening in the billiard industry that most of you are not aware of that can have a negative impact on your league. Just like the current economic strain can have affects on people they did not anticipate because of the trickledown theory. I firmly believe, if we do not make this choice to move forward, team counts will drop right along with the National fund money and that will further reduce the number of teams we can send to a National event. While the new program may require some out-of-pocket expense for some teams, the opportunity will still be available - and, for many teams, it may cost them nothing.
Don't take a chance of getting incorrect information. If anyone is unsure or unclear about what this program truly offers, I would encourage them to call me personally to discuss. It is important to us that 100% of our players understand this which is why we are investing this time to communicate.
If you were not given a copy of the letter by your captain, e-mail us and we will send you a copy. Or click on the "Players Information Center" button on the web site. You cannot formulate an opinion based on what another player tells you if you haven't read the information for yourself. From our experience with this project, many players have misinterpreted the program and I have spoken to several of these players, and when our conversation was over, they changed their vote to "approved" because they fully understood it and all its implications.
Wednesday, 01 October 2008
The comments received from the players who approve this change are as follows - each bullet point is a different players comment.
- "Fantastic"
- I think this is a great idea - more money payback will grow the league which will result in higher paybacks - it's a win/win for everyone.
- Good idea!
- Would prefer a smaller arena in town with better chances at cash payback. Better chances of winning our national fund money and still get a chance to the nationals.
- I completely agree - keep the dollars in Arizona. It's just a big party from I hear - we can party anywhere. Who knows this could save so much money, there would be more for us.
- Outstanding idea!
- Like the idea and the format.
- Highly approve - good work on the changes.
- Gives people who can't afford to miss work the option to win something!
- As long as 3-day weekend is NOT on a holiday - I don't spend holidays playing pool - I'd rather chase skirts!
- I like this idea much better than flying teams to Florida for Nationals. Plus, teams will still have the option if they wish to pay their way. I don't think scheduling on a e-day weekend will work because a lot of people may plan vacations at that time.
- I like this much better!
- Fabulous ideas - as usual - Thanks!
- You're doing an outstanding job! Keep it up - it makes it all fun!
- Annette requests singing Elvis's and hot show girls!
- Only if at a hotel or casino! No local bar!
- Only if the tournament was held at a casino or local hotel - NOT a local Bar!
- I like the plan, but don't like the casino option. I would rather see two consecutive weekends.
- Can we also have a tournament of MVP's whose winners get a chance to go to Nationals? Have a side tournament of all (2-3), (4-5), (6-7) H/C and the winners of those get some money to form a team for Nationals. I think forming a team with MVP's would be a strong contender from PHX TAP. I approve the above assuming that the $$$ distribution would be such that there is less burden on teams (5-8) to send a team to Nationals. Probably pay less to 1st, 2nd place teams.
- There should be no dues increase for 5 years.
- I think this is an excellent idea!
- If half the teams from the Masters were considered qualified to go to the Nationals, they could pay their expenses just as teams do in other pool leagues.
- One of advantages of having our own tournament is that most of the H/C's will be actually valid. By-in-large, I have found that local h/c's are usually accurate, but we are penalized for our local integrety when we get to the nationals.
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Always for the Player!
T.A.P. of Greater Phoenix, LLC
Phoenix, AZ 85044
Phone: 602-268-6067
FAX: 602-304-3741
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| TAP TOURNAMENT SCHEDULE & CALENDAR |
Vegas Nationals Singles Tournament Sign-upIf you are planning on going to the Vegas Nationals in November to play in the "Singles" events for TAP players, you must pre-register. Click on the above link to download the registration form and send it in to the TAP Corporate office prior to October 2, 2010.
- Sun., Sept. 12 - SCOTCH DOUBLES TOURNEY - Skip & Jan's - starts @ noon
- 2010 ARIZONA STATE MASTERS - SEPT 25-26 AND OCT 2-3
- ...Sat., Sept. 25 - All 9' table teams play at Main Street - 10 a.m. start
- ...Sun., Sept. 26 - All barbox & 8' Table teams play at Main Street - 10 a.m. start
- ...Sat., Oct. 2 - All teams play at Main Street - Starts @ 10 for championship board & 11 for 2nd chance board
- ...Sun., Oct. 3 - final four play from both championship & 2nd chance boards
- 2010 Nationals - Las Vegas - Nov. 3 - 8, 2010
- ...Nationals: Wed., 11/3 - National party in the evening
- ...Nationals: Thurs., 11/4 - 8-Ball (teams during day/singles @ night)
- ...Nationals; Fri., 11/5 - 9-Ball (teams during day/singles @ night/continue w/8-Ball)
- ...Nationals: Fri., 11/5 - "Dream Team" event
- ...Nationals: Sat, 11/6 - all events run
- ...Nationals Sun, 11/7 - finals for all nationals, dream team, teams and singles
- ...Nationals: Mon., 11/8 - return home
- Nov. 20/21 - TITLEHOLDERS (G,K,N,Q)-Skip & Jan's - 10 a.m.
- Dec. 4/5 - TITLEHOLDERS (A,B,C,P)-Skip & Jan's - 10 a.m.
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